He is methodically working through his endive. Having given up on my lettuce, I suggest that Westeros is, perhaps, the most richly imagined “other” civilisation since JRR Tolkien’s Middle Earth, and has, similarly, broken into the mainstream literary consciousness. Martin, who has long acknowledged a huge debt to Tolkien, says: “There were thousands of years of fantasy before Tolkien but the way it is shaped as a modern commercial publishing genre and the fantasy books that have been written in the past half century have all been influenced by Tolkien. So it still sort of defines the playing field.”

他有条不紊地吃着菊苣。我不再吃自己的莴苣。我说，维斯特洛或许是自J•R•R•托尔金(JRR Tolkien)的中土世界以来想象最丰富的“其他”文明，同样也闯入了主流文学意识。马丁早就承认从托尔金那里得到很多启发。他说道：“在托尔金之前的数千年就有奇幻小说，但奇幻小说之所以能成为现代商业出版的一种文学类别，以及过去50年创作的奇幻著作，全都受到托尔金的影响。因此托尔金的小说仍在某种程度上定义着奇幻小说。”

Have his own books redefined fantasy fiction for the 21st century? “Maybe. They have certainly added some elements that were missing.” I ask if that includes really good parts for women – and dwarves. Women in Martin’s saga are just as morally compromised and sexually pragmatic as the men. And the dwarf Tyrion Lannister (played in the series by Peter Dinklage, in an Emmy-winning performance) is the closest the books have to a hero.

马丁自己的书是否为21世纪重新定义了奇幻小说？“或许吧。它们当然是增添了一些缺失的元素。”我问，这是否包括对女性——和侏儒——真正精彩的描写？马丁的史诗巨著中的女人跟男人一样，会在道德上妥协，在性方面采取实用主义态度。侏儒提利昂•兰尼斯特(Tyrion Lannister)（剧中由彼得•丁克拉格(Peter Dinklage)出演，获得了艾美奖）是他书中最接近英雄的侏儒。

Martin is roused to take me on. “But I think Tolkien had at least one great part for a woman. I love Eowyn, she is really the only woman in it. Arwen was created for the movie.

马丁来了精神，向我发起挑战。“但我认为，托尔金起码写出了一个伟大的女人。我热爱伊欧玟(Eowyn)，她是书中唯一真正的女人。阿尔文(Arwen)是为了电影塑造的。”

“Tolkien was a 19th-century guy, a world war one veteran, and the fact that his books still speak to the modern reader, and are enjoyed by millions of people today, is a sign of his brilliance. I think he will continue to be read for centuries to come.”

“托尔金是19世纪的人，一个一战老兵。他的书仍对现代读者有吸引力，受到今天无数人的喜欢，这证明了他的才华横溢。我认为，未来几个世纪里，他的书仍将有读者。”

He is preaching to the fantasy-converted. I tell him that in my teens I had a map of Middle Earth pinned to the wall, with the route of Frodo’s journey picked out with drawing pins. Maps are very important in fantasy, Martin says (there is a book of detailed maps of his imagined worlds coming out soon). “When you are reading historical fiction and the character says, ‘I must go to Cornwall,’ you know where Cornwall is, you don’t need a map. But when a character in Westeros says, ‘I must go to Dorne’ – you don’t know where that is. So we had to include a map in the opening credits [of the TV series].”

他在向我这个奇幻迷“布道”。我告诉他，在十几岁时，我就把一幅中土世界的地图钉到墙上，用图钉标出弗罗多(Frodo)的远征路线。马丁说，地图在奇幻故事中的地位很重要（一本他想象中世界的详细地图书不久后将问世）。“你读历史小说时，当里面的人物说，‘我必须去康沃尔(Cornwall)了’，你不用看地图，就知道康沃尔在什么地方。但当维斯特洛的一个人物说，‘我必须去多恩(Dorne)了’，你不知道那是哪里。所以，我们得在（电视剧的）片头字幕里加入一张地图。”

Our main courses have arrived. We stare at the plates, each filled with a single giant slab of breaded, apparently fantasy-kingdom-shaped meat. I am grateful for the side order of broccoli, while Martin scoops up his mash. Between mouthfuls, he tells me about how he wrote his first fantasy saga in childhood. “In America at the time, in places like Woolworths, you could buy ‘dime store turtles’ – they came in a little plastic bowl, it had water down one side and a divider down the middle, gravel on the other side and a little fake palm tree.” He demonstrates the layout with his hands. “Those were the only pets we could have. I had a toy castle set up near my bed, made of tin, and the courtyard was just big enough for two turtle tanks, and I had five or six turtles who lived in the castle. I decided they were knights, lords and kings, so I started writing this whole fantasy series about the turtle kingdom and the king of the turtles.

主菜上来了。我们瞪着盘子，每人的盘子上装着一块裹了面包屑、就像奇幻王国形状的巨大肉块。我很庆幸配菜点了花椰菜，马丁则舀了土豆泥吃。一边进餐，他一边告诉我，他在孩提时代是怎么写出第一个奇幻故事的。“那时的美国，在沃尔沃斯(Woolworths)这样的地方，你可以买到‘折扣店专供海龟’——装在一个塑料碗里，碗中间有一个隔断，一侧有水，另一侧铺着碎石子，还有一棵小小的假棕榈树。”他用手比划着碗里的布局。“那是我们能拥有的唯一宠物。我用金属罐在床边搭起了一个玩具城堡，城堡庭院的空间刚好放下两个海龟罐，我有五六只海龟，它们都住在那城堡里。我把它们定为骑士、贵族和国王，于是，我开始写有关海龟王国和海龟国王的整个系列奇幻故事。”